Thank you for mentioning Martina Navrátilová. She comes from my country and when she suffered hate storm for her "anti-trans" views most people in Czechia (called backwards by the West sometimes) were shocked. Because they remembered Martina as one of the first lesbian who openly talked about it - and at that time in Czechia nobody talked about it, thus she had to be really brave
Interesting, Freelance Writing Mom. Oh yes. Incredibly brave. When she came out, in the early 80s, it was very early in this country, too.
Incredibly smart, too. She's leading this movement to keep sports female because she's visionary, clear, bold... and influential. When she speaks, the world listens. So honored to work alongside her in the Women's Sports Policy Working Group. (https://womenssportspolicy.org)
I’m sorry but whatever you are pushing here is not pro women. Until you can move from a place of seeing trans women as women then you’re just another transphobe looking at anything to state what has never been obvious. The sad tale of the woman in a locker room forced to dress with Lia Thomas, a trans woman, who has not had a vaginoplasty, tells me just how ugly this push to save “real woman” has gotten. Environment, training, socioeconomics, heredity, talent, all play a large part in how women compete with each other. The statistic you left out in your percent of how many trans females are taking hormones or who have undergone surgery, are the numbers of trans people who’d love to be on hormones but can’t because they are either too young or they can’t afford it, or they are in a state with little to no gender affirming care. You also left out how many trans girls just want to play on the girls team. They aren’t athletic or bigger or faster than all the other girls, they just want to be part of a team or play with their girl friends. Funny how you leave this data out. No, instead you misgender and identify trans women as men, and state you are not transphobic. Until we can have real conversations about grief, and fear, and then look at the factual data regarding trans women and men in sports, I’m afraid your just one more person who listens to no one but her own affirming words about how hate isn’t hate if you say it isn’t.
Hi Alicia, I see we disagree on many things, but I want you to know I hear your anger and I'm sorry you feel like I'm being hateful.
I wonder if you'd be willing to answer a question or two.
When you say "trans women are women," do you mean literally? Like, a man (yes, that's "misgendering" to you but that's the point of my story: we need to use accurate, sex-based language, so I'm going to say men here) - anyway, do you believe that a man can literally become a woman? Just through belief or feeling or identity? Once he declares himself to be a woman, then he is a woman? Because of gender dysphoria or "born in the wrong body" or "inner knowing," which sometimes begins as young as infancy, according to some trans documents I've read.
If so, can that person then change back to a man? Indefinitely, back and forth like that, with maybe some nonbinary phases too? (Which is what some male athletes are doing in marathons - entering a variety of categories over time.)
And if so, does that (one transition or more than one) seem magical or mystical to you - that men can just turn themselves into women (with or without surgery & hormones)?
Or are you speaking more metaphorically: That "transwomen" consider themselves to be women, and thus should be accorded all of the rights of women - including access to locker rooms and athletic teams?
If so, does that same principle apply to race or age, if we consider ourselves to be older or younger or a different race? I ask because I've read about at least two men who have "identified as girls" and entered girls' competitions and locker rooms. One was 52.
And there was the famous case of Rachel Dolezal who identifies as Black. Pretty much no one accepted that from her, once it was exposed that she was zero percent Black.
I'm afraid this sounds snarky, and that's not my intent. It's hard to keep my own feelings out of it; as you can see, I believe girls and women have a right to compete and change their clothes in all-female spaces.
But I'm sincerely interested in what you and others mean when you say "trans women are women." Literal or metaphoric? Thanks for any response you care to share.
Yes, exactly. And if a particular woman or man does not produce ova or sperm due to surgery or menopause or fluke of nature or whatever, their bodies are still designed for that reproductive function, with wider hips and more fat on women, for example. Thanks, Donna.
Yes, and the intersex (now called Disorders or Differences of Sexual Development) conditions are used to muddy the trans-athlete waters. It's a distraction from the problem: male athletes posing as females, with no consideration for how their participation affects actual females.
Except that's not always true. Some do opt out. I know some trans adults who opt out, acknowledging their male performance advantage; you just don't hear of them as often. Caitlyn Jenner is one; she does not compete against women in golf for that reason.
Hi Mariah: please pardon my naiveté, but are there trans women athletes who are outspoken about this? i.e., they recognize their inherent performance advantage and how that affects their female teammates? I recall a televised interview with a trans woman runner a few years ago who understood her advantages and spoke openly about this issue. I can't remember if the interview included a discussion about open leagues, but I thought the interview itself was a step in the right direction.
Hi Stacy, Not a naive question at all. Yes, there are several. They compete against men (no reason not to) or are retired. Caitlin Jenner, Jessica Gill, Corinna Cohn, & Renee Richards are some of the names. They acknowledge the inherent and enduring male advantage and speak up on behalf of female athletes - which is appropriate for people who say they identify as women. Thanks for asking. They don't get much press.
Agreed ! Men are stronger than women . Competing with women is cheating and men who do that should be ashamed to take away prizes from women… claiming that they are women is also lying, so they are liars and cheaters!
Hi Stosh, Maybe we'll get back to those simpler, clearer times eventually. Just think - if/when we do, we won't even need to say "people in possession of a penis" anymore - we can just say "men," and everyone will know exactly who we mean. :-)
“Inclusive” is the word that often means exclusive …in this Orwellian world we now live in!” Because I say so “ will get you far. The same goes for “ Be kind” …it means kindness to a few only.
I think women's sports should remain open only to biological women born as women. Men and all transgender athletes should compete in what could be called an "Open" division. So then there would be an "Open" division and a "Women's" division for all sports
Thanks, Al. This might work. I can think of a few complications:
1) when women ingest testosterone related to a trans, nonbinary or any other identity, they disqualify themselves from the female category -- as do any athletes of either sex who ingest testosterone or other performance-enhancing drugs.
So far, men are not objecting to testosterone-fueled females competing in the men's (or open) category -- because the male performance advantage is such that no amount of female doping can compare to it.
But women in general (still) do not want other women who take drugs to compete against them.
2) Some trans-identified female athletes are challenging these longstanding anti-doping rules, claiming that for trans-identified women, testosterone is medically or therapeutically necessary and thus (like certain asthma medications) should qualify for a Therapeutic Use Exemption. I disagree - women have a right to a competitive environment free from performance-enhancing drugs, just as the men do.
3) So far, trans-identified male athletes are not embracing an Open category as a solution to this conflict (though they may have to, if/as the rules change, sport by sport). My understanding is that their desire to be "affirmed" as women seems paramount - an affirmation an Open category cannot confer.
In any case, thanks for thinking through these ideas with me. Women have a lot to lose, and we appreciate male support!
Thank you for mentioning Martina Navrátilová. She comes from my country and when she suffered hate storm for her "anti-trans" views most people in Czechia (called backwards by the West sometimes) were shocked. Because they remembered Martina as one of the first lesbian who openly talked about it - and at that time in Czechia nobody talked about it, thus she had to be really brave
Interesting, Freelance Writing Mom. Oh yes. Incredibly brave. When she came out, in the early 80s, it was very early in this country, too.
Incredibly smart, too. She's leading this movement to keep sports female because she's visionary, clear, bold... and influential. When she speaks, the world listens. So honored to work alongside her in the Women's Sports Policy Working Group. (https://womenssportspolicy.org)
I’m sorry but whatever you are pushing here is not pro women. Until you can move from a place of seeing trans women as women then you’re just another transphobe looking at anything to state what has never been obvious. The sad tale of the woman in a locker room forced to dress with Lia Thomas, a trans woman, who has not had a vaginoplasty, tells me just how ugly this push to save “real woman” has gotten. Environment, training, socioeconomics, heredity, talent, all play a large part in how women compete with each other. The statistic you left out in your percent of how many trans females are taking hormones or who have undergone surgery, are the numbers of trans people who’d love to be on hormones but can’t because they are either too young or they can’t afford it, or they are in a state with little to no gender affirming care. You also left out how many trans girls just want to play on the girls team. They aren’t athletic or bigger or faster than all the other girls, they just want to be part of a team or play with their girl friends. Funny how you leave this data out. No, instead you misgender and identify trans women as men, and state you are not transphobic. Until we can have real conversations about grief, and fear, and then look at the factual data regarding trans women and men in sports, I’m afraid your just one more person who listens to no one but her own affirming words about how hate isn’t hate if you say it isn’t.
Hi Alicia, I see we disagree on many things, but I want you to know I hear your anger and I'm sorry you feel like I'm being hateful.
I wonder if you'd be willing to answer a question or two.
When you say "trans women are women," do you mean literally? Like, a man (yes, that's "misgendering" to you but that's the point of my story: we need to use accurate, sex-based language, so I'm going to say men here) - anyway, do you believe that a man can literally become a woman? Just through belief or feeling or identity? Once he declares himself to be a woman, then he is a woman? Because of gender dysphoria or "born in the wrong body" or "inner knowing," which sometimes begins as young as infancy, according to some trans documents I've read.
If so, can that person then change back to a man? Indefinitely, back and forth like that, with maybe some nonbinary phases too? (Which is what some male athletes are doing in marathons - entering a variety of categories over time.)
And if so, does that (one transition or more than one) seem magical or mystical to you - that men can just turn themselves into women (with or without surgery & hormones)?
Or are you speaking more metaphorically: That "transwomen" consider themselves to be women, and thus should be accorded all of the rights of women - including access to locker rooms and athletic teams?
If so, does that same principle apply to race or age, if we consider ourselves to be older or younger or a different race? I ask because I've read about at least two men who have "identified as girls" and entered girls' competitions and locker rooms. One was 52.
And there was the famous case of Rachel Dolezal who identifies as Black. Pretty much no one accepted that from her, once it was exposed that she was zero percent Black.
I'm afraid this sounds snarky, and that's not my intent. It's hard to keep my own feelings out of it; as you can see, I believe girls and women have a right to compete and change their clothes in all-female spaces.
But I'm sincerely interested in what you and others mean when you say "trans women are women." Literal or metaphoric? Thanks for any response you care to share.
Yes, exactly. And if a particular woman or man does not produce ova or sperm due to surgery or menopause or fluke of nature or whatever, their bodies are still designed for that reproductive function, with wider hips and more fat on women, for example. Thanks, Donna.
And XX or XY chromosomes are in every cell in our body.
Yes, and the intersex (now called Disorders or Differences of Sexual Development) conditions are used to muddy the trans-athlete waters. It's a distraction from the problem: male athletes posing as females, with no consideration for how their participation affects actual females.
Except that's not always true. Some do opt out. I know some trans adults who opt out, acknowledging their male performance advantage; you just don't hear of them as often. Caitlyn Jenner is one; she does not compete against women in golf for that reason.
Hi Mariah: please pardon my naiveté, but are there trans women athletes who are outspoken about this? i.e., they recognize their inherent performance advantage and how that affects their female teammates? I recall a televised interview with a trans woman runner a few years ago who understood her advantages and spoke openly about this issue. I can't remember if the interview included a discussion about open leagues, but I thought the interview itself was a step in the right direction.
Hi Stacy, Not a naive question at all. Yes, there are several. They compete against men (no reason not to) or are retired. Caitlin Jenner, Jessica Gill, Corinna Cohn, & Renee Richards are some of the names. They acknowledge the inherent and enduring male advantage and speak up on behalf of female athletes - which is appropriate for people who say they identify as women. Thanks for asking. They don't get much press.
Agreed ! Men are stronger than women . Competing with women is cheating and men who do that should be ashamed to take away prizes from women… claiming that they are women is also lying, so they are liars and cheaters!
People in possession of a penis should compete against other people in possession of a penis. Seems pretty fair to me.
Hi Stosh, Maybe we'll get back to those simpler, clearer times eventually. Just think - if/when we do, we won't even need to say "people in possession of a penis" anymore - we can just say "men," and everyone will know exactly who we mean. :-)
I was just doing that to be "inclusive".
Haha!
“Inclusive” is the word that often means exclusive …in this Orwellian world we now live in!” Because I say so “ will get you far. The same goes for “ Be kind” …it means kindness to a few only.
Got it. Sorry, I think I missed your wink. :-)
I think women's sports should remain open only to biological women born as women. Men and all transgender athletes should compete in what could be called an "Open" division. So then there would be an "Open" division and a "Women's" division for all sports
Thanks, Al. This might work. I can think of a few complications:
1) when women ingest testosterone related to a trans, nonbinary or any other identity, they disqualify themselves from the female category -- as do any athletes of either sex who ingest testosterone or other performance-enhancing drugs.
So far, men are not objecting to testosterone-fueled females competing in the men's (or open) category -- because the male performance advantage is such that no amount of female doping can compare to it.
But women in general (still) do not want other women who take drugs to compete against them.
2) Some trans-identified female athletes are challenging these longstanding anti-doping rules, claiming that for trans-identified women, testosterone is medically or therapeutically necessary and thus (like certain asthma medications) should qualify for a Therapeutic Use Exemption. I disagree - women have a right to a competitive environment free from performance-enhancing drugs, just as the men do.
3) So far, trans-identified male athletes are not embracing an Open category as a solution to this conflict (though they may have to, if/as the rules change, sport by sport). My understanding is that their desire to be "affirmed" as women seems paramount - an affirmation an Open category cannot confer.
In any case, thanks for thinking through these ideas with me. Women have a lot to lose, and we appreciate male support!