The boys and men who are pretending to be women want to compete against women because they have a false belief that we believe they are women and that is a thrill to them. If they just wanted to do sports they would do it in their correct sex category. But for them, that’s not the point. The point is acceptance of their delusion. That is their ultimate goal.
This is seriously disconnected from reality. You are asking teenage boys, with no support, to do something that alleged grown-ups aren't willing to do.
First of all, if the school is recognizing gender self-identification, which allows them to compete on the girls' team, then the boys could easily be accused of "mis-gendering" and possibly harassed for that. Look at the SJ State volleyball player who called out the travesty of a male on the female team and eventually dropped out of school because of the abuse she was getting. Are you seriously asking them to tell someone "they" are really not a girl and they should compete on your team? That makes no sense to me at all when you have "adults" who won't do that, either because they buy into the nonsense or they fear consequences for speaking out.
Boys want to fit in, not rock the boat, and you go along to get along. There are cliques with insiders and outsiders, and not everyone is accepted equally in the locker room. There is often hazing and harassment of some guys, worse in team sports like football and basketball, less likely in track, but it still exists as far as acceptance.
There is no way in the world it's fair to put this burden on teenage boys who are still working to find out where they belong. This is not on them, it's on the alleged grown-ups.".
“Some readers may feel no sympathy for teenage boys who lack the courage and integrity to stay out of girls’ sports. But boys who have been indoctrinated to believe they deserve female rights — and that they’re “really” girls or can become girls — should be educated, not blamed.”
Personally, I wouldn’t call it a failure of courage or integrity on the part of these boys, I’d call it a failure of wisdom. And it’s hard to blame a teenager for lacking wisdom, especially when the efforts to indoctrinate them otherwise have been so robust and well-funded.
Yes, let men welcome 'men-who-are-alienated-from-their-sex' into their toilets, locker rooms, sport competitions, prisons, universities and parliaments. Let them. And thank you Mariah and Cori, and so many others, for helping me work my way through this, while all the while my son undergoes chemical castration, in the hands of WPATH practitioners
OMG. So sorry to hear that, Mark. I’m glad you’re finding resources that help you understand what’s happening. And I hope that your son eventually does too. How tragic.
It’s important to emphasize, as you have done, that this question isn’t a new one. I’m old enough to remember Renee Richards. It is also important to flip this issue back to men as Cori and others are now doing. Accommodating and accepting gender non-confirming males should be dealt with by men whether it is being more accepting in sports or spaces. The Real Science of Sports podcast is wonderful. It is worthwhile to spend some time going through their archives and listen to the podcasts dealing with the IOC, Caster Semenya and males with DSDs as well as their discussions on the trans athletes issue. And finally a must read in addition to Helen Joyce is Unfair Play by Sharron Davies. She took a deep dive into the issue.
Did I send you that fascinating study on how trans and cis people think of identity: as a mental thing versus a physical thing? But alas, Descartes was wrong. We are just one entity that is made of our whole body including our brains, hormones, organs, which are all made of a plethora of tiny cells and chemicals. (Cogsci study is an on and off hobby for me.)
Surely the answer is to not use categorisation that casts such a shadow over the rest of someone’s life? Apart from anything else it makes no sense. Some cis women are 6 foot 3. Are we really saying that we eliminate physical advantage by saying yes but they are a woman so it’s fine that the five foot women have to compete with them? The whole thing needs a giant injection of logic and reason and less emoting. Categorise on weight on height, on relevant factors. And then we might see some interesting turnarounds on whether men always are bound to win.
If that’s actually true, perhaps this is one of those topics you should become more knowledgeable about, prior to opining.
But since you’ve been able to move that rock from which you’ve been under, just long enough to participate in this thread, I’ll give you a bit of information:
If there were no such thing as women’s sports / women’s leagues, women would have no opportunity to experience competitive athletics.
Best of luck to you on your educational journey; by the way, we landed on the moon!
As far as Im aware women do or have held the records for endurance running. Women jockeys have won the grand national and these days ride hundreds of winners in a season. These are both sports which as recently as the seventies we were assured were completely impossible for women to compete in at all and in which they would be an active danger in the case of racing. The world moves on though and sweeps such superstition away. No one is at all surprised by women running marathons now unlike in the 70s when they were forcibly prevented in some cases because they would somehow damage themselves. Are you aware of these facts?
Please point out the last time every man beat every woman in either the Boston Berlin Chicago or New York marathons. Women are not all alike in size or physical strength and nor are men. That’s the point. The only logical reason for separating those categories is to try to create an equal starting point for women and for men. But it fails because being a woman is not a cookie cutter thing and nor is being a man. Many men get beat by women in marathons. That’s a fact. So it doesn’t achieve what it sets out to. So the suggestion is that instead people compete more like boxing for example - in a weight category. Or with a handicap like golf. Then all the argument and upset could be taken out of it.
In the sports where people are used to seeing men and women compete on equal terms no one really cares though, do they? I don’t like this notion of women as necessarily weaker and slower than all men - it’s not true. I grew up with a brother and I can attest to that fact!
The game is not, “Which person is the best at this sport?”
If that were the game, a man would always win.
The game is, “Which WOMAN is the best at this sport?”
And yes, if it’s a sport that requires height, an exceptionally tall woman will win. If it’s a sport that requires strength, an exceptionally strong woman will win.
But the winner will still be a woman.
The game you seem to be advocating is “Which sex is better at this sport?” That game is no fun, because we all know ahead of time what the outcome will be. Even when matched for height and weight, men are still stronger and faster than women, and they still have quicker reactions.
No - I’d just suggest that rather than drawing the box around men and women the box is drawn in more relevant and interesting ways that have people compete with others of more similar physical attributes. Some say women cannot beat men at some sports. You can just as easily say that most women are not six foot muscled women either and for other women to have to compete against such women is not fair and there should be some system- like in boxing for example - that assigns them to heavyweight etc categories. I don’t believe that it is possible for any man to beat all women at all sports and because the world has moved on perhaps we need to move on our ideas of women and men in sport and being a bit more objective about where and why we draw the competition box than the too- broad anachronism of men and women.
For spectators, sports are entertainment. Plenty of people are interested to watch a contest that identifies and celebrates the strongest or fastest or most skilled woman. In a mixed-sex competition, people don’t get to see that.
Respectfully: People have been studying sport performance for more than 100 years. There is vast, documented evidence - think Olympic records, youth records, HS records, scientific research - that males have a performance advantage over females at every height, weight, age, disability, level of fitness, anything. Sports is not a new field of study. Those of us who study sport already know things. This is one thing we know for sure.
Some men have advantage over all women but not all men. Some women have advantage over other women and also over some men. Athletes are individuals not averages. Let’s focus on the factual matters that are actually there in front of us rather than belief systems and generalisations that don’t apply in the specific cases of individual athletes.
Averages are why we have separate sports for men and women. Women would never win anything in combined sports. So men who aren’t good enough at sports to win in the male category need to accept it and suck it up like the rest of us who aren’t good enough to win at sports. If they need to compete against women to win, then either they need to play amateur sports for fun or find something else they do excel at. Winning sports isn’t a human right.
If women were physically as strong as men we likely would not have the patriarchy or so much femicide and abuse of women by men. But they know they can beat the shit out of us most of the time so they have the power. It's bullshit but that's the crappy truth.
‘Women would never win anything in combined sports’. Personally I think that viewpoint is problematic. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy- men as a category tending to be advantaged in a simple men/women divide. But if you pitted them according to height/weight/age etc more relevant divisions something different and more interesting could well emerge. Simply creating a ‘women’s’ category doesn’t do anything to be fair to women who are eg physically smaller than some very large and powerful elite women athletes. It’s not fair either.
All I care about is that it is no longer our problem. If men want to take up the problem. they can. I don't want to feel in any way responsible for persuading or encouraging men to take up the problem because then it's back to being my problem.
I’ve said this other ways and don’t want to repost my own writing but “will athletes welcome girly boys” is precisely the point of female sexual mimicry. What other males say and do is irrelevant.
A key objective of men imitating women - sexual mimicry - is precisely to never have to compete with men in sports, in work, or for emotional and sexual fulfillment with women.
They don’t want to because it unmasks the fiction that they are female.
💯!! It's women who continue to, like in Scotland, fight for women and girls (with a few notable exceptions) at great cost. Men can absolutely help by opening their locker rooms and other spaces to "gender nonconforming" boys and men with intention and tolerance.
This is exactly what I have been saying for a while now. These boys have been lied to, given horrible advice, and now they think this is where they belong - in girls' sports (and spaces). Of course, that is wrong. The remedy is exactly what Cori says Let the boys and coaches on male teams explicitly invite girly" boys and masculine boys who just think they are girls (it being more of a mindset for some then a problem with masculinity) onto their teams and into their locker rooms. Let's show what real tolerance and empathy means. Rather than lying to boys by pretending they are girls, we can simply let them know they are welcome to play sports with other boys, because, no matter how effeminate they may be, and no matter what they think of themselves, they are, after all, boys.
The boys and men who are pretending to be women want to compete against women because they have a false belief that we believe they are women and that is a thrill to them. If they just wanted to do sports they would do it in their correct sex category. But for them, that’s not the point. The point is acceptance of their delusion. That is their ultimate goal.
This is seriously disconnected from reality. You are asking teenage boys, with no support, to do something that alleged grown-ups aren't willing to do.
First of all, if the school is recognizing gender self-identification, which allows them to compete on the girls' team, then the boys could easily be accused of "mis-gendering" and possibly harassed for that. Look at the SJ State volleyball player who called out the travesty of a male on the female team and eventually dropped out of school because of the abuse she was getting. Are you seriously asking them to tell someone "they" are really not a girl and they should compete on your team? That makes no sense to me at all when you have "adults" who won't do that, either because they buy into the nonsense or they fear consequences for speaking out.
Boys want to fit in, not rock the boat, and you go along to get along. There are cliques with insiders and outsiders, and not everyone is accepted equally in the locker room. There is often hazing and harassment of some guys, worse in team sports like football and basketball, less likely in track, but it still exists as far as acceptance.
There is no way in the world it's fair to put this burden on teenage boys who are still working to find out where they belong. This is not on them, it's on the alleged grown-ups.".
I like this approach.
“Some readers may feel no sympathy for teenage boys who lack the courage and integrity to stay out of girls’ sports. But boys who have been indoctrinated to believe they deserve female rights — and that they’re “really” girls or can become girls — should be educated, not blamed.”
Personally, I wouldn’t call it a failure of courage or integrity on the part of these boys, I’d call it a failure of wisdom. And it’s hard to blame a teenager for lacking wisdom, especially when the efforts to indoctrinate them otherwise have been so robust and well-funded.
Yes, better. Thanks. Immature by definition. Not a fault. A vulnerable, gullible a stage of life.
Yes, let men welcome 'men-who-are-alienated-from-their-sex' into their toilets, locker rooms, sport competitions, prisons, universities and parliaments. Let them. And thank you Mariah and Cori, and so many others, for helping me work my way through this, while all the while my son undergoes chemical castration, in the hands of WPATH practitioners
OMG. So sorry to hear that, Mark. I’m glad you’re finding resources that help you understand what’s happening. And I hope that your son eventually does too. How tragic.
I will state categorically that men care more about performance on the court, field, rink, or pool, than they do about how someone dresses.
It’s important to emphasize, as you have done, that this question isn’t a new one. I’m old enough to remember Renee Richards. It is also important to flip this issue back to men as Cori and others are now doing. Accommodating and accepting gender non-confirming males should be dealt with by men whether it is being more accepting in sports or spaces. The Real Science of Sports podcast is wonderful. It is worthwhile to spend some time going through their archives and listen to the podcasts dealing with the IOC, Caster Semenya and males with DSDs as well as their discussions on the trans athletes issue. And finally a must read in addition to Helen Joyce is Unfair Play by Sharron Davies. She took a deep dive into the issue.
Yes, thanks.
Why not the whole “wrong body” concept as the very taproot foundational error?
Yes. Seems you could count foundational errors a few different ways.
Did I send you that fascinating study on how trans and cis people think of identity: as a mental thing versus a physical thing? But alas, Descartes was wrong. We are just one entity that is made of our whole body including our brains, hormones, organs, which are all made of a plethora of tiny cells and chemicals. (Cogsci study is an on and off hobby for me.)
Yes, thanks, here it is: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-93174-3.epdf?sharing_token=s8Kt6jutH5dhToqAM7_nstRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0MA3CCIpDOsknlvvbhIkJ3eBqY4244DDAb4bpfOnDFr1Ps0o7-feiNWb0zEi0ftw_x11_hm_FS16vcplBEjqu-vfxLrbV9i4KD8P2YXyGmBQoA7wB_9P-FR6s1E2Yglwr8%3D
Are there any examples of male athletes who are champions transitioning to girls sports?
Thousands of trophies, more than a million dollars have been taken from women in this say. See hecheated.org.
This is the way.
Be in reality “zero competition”????
Surely the answer is to not use categorisation that casts such a shadow over the rest of someone’s life? Apart from anything else it makes no sense. Some cis women are 6 foot 3. Are we really saying that we eliminate physical advantage by saying yes but they are a woman so it’s fine that the five foot women have to compete with them? The whole thing needs a giant injection of logic and reason and less emoting. Categorise on weight on height, on relevant factors. And then we might see some interesting turnarounds on whether men always are bound to win.
Can you please list the female athletes that play and have played in the NBA, MLB, NHL, and NFL?
Not only can I not list them I have no idea what those organisations are. What’s the relevance?
If that’s actually true, perhaps this is one of those topics you should become more knowledgeable about, prior to opining.
But since you’ve been able to move that rock from which you’ve been under, just long enough to participate in this thread, I’ll give you a bit of information:
If there were no such thing as women’s sports / women’s leagues, women would have no opportunity to experience competitive athletics.
Best of luck to you on your educational journey; by the way, we landed on the moon!
As far as Im aware women do or have held the records for endurance running. Women jockeys have won the grand national and these days ride hundreds of winners in a season. These are both sports which as recently as the seventies we were assured were completely impossible for women to compete in at all and in which they would be an active danger in the case of racing. The world moves on though and sweeps such superstition away. No one is at all surprised by women running marathons now unlike in the 70s when they were forcibly prevented in some cases because they would somehow damage themselves. Are you aware of these facts?
Please point to the last time a woman ran the fastest time out of all competitors in either the Boston, Berlin, Chicago or New York marathons.
You’re being obtuse, because reality is not on your side.
The fact that you waste your time engaging on this subject suggests it’s personal to you.
Males are not nor ever will be any type of woman or female.
Women and females want and deserve their own athletics; deal with it.
Please point out the last time every man beat every woman in either the Boston Berlin Chicago or New York marathons. Women are not all alike in size or physical strength and nor are men. That’s the point. The only logical reason for separating those categories is to try to create an equal starting point for women and for men. But it fails because being a woman is not a cookie cutter thing and nor is being a man. Many men get beat by women in marathons. That’s a fact. So it doesn’t achieve what it sets out to. So the suggestion is that instead people compete more like boxing for example - in a weight category. Or with a handicap like golf. Then all the argument and upset could be taken out of it.
In the sports where people are used to seeing men and women compete on equal terms no one really cares though, do they? I don’t like this notion of women as necessarily weaker and slower than all men - it’s not true. I grew up with a brother and I can attest to that fact!
Oh, I see, you’re being satirical.
You misunderstand the game.
The game is not, “Which person is the best at this sport?”
If that were the game, a man would always win.
The game is, “Which WOMAN is the best at this sport?”
And yes, if it’s a sport that requires height, an exceptionally tall woman will win. If it’s a sport that requires strength, an exceptionally strong woman will win.
But the winner will still be a woman.
The game you seem to be advocating is “Which sex is better at this sport?” That game is no fun, because we all know ahead of time what the outcome will be. Even when matched for height and weight, men are still stronger and faster than women, and they still have quicker reactions.
No - I’d just suggest that rather than drawing the box around men and women the box is drawn in more relevant and interesting ways that have people compete with others of more similar physical attributes. Some say women cannot beat men at some sports. You can just as easily say that most women are not six foot muscled women either and for other women to have to compete against such women is not fair and there should be some system- like in boxing for example - that assigns them to heavyweight etc categories. I don’t believe that it is possible for any man to beat all women at all sports and because the world has moved on perhaps we need to move on our ideas of women and men in sport and being a bit more objective about where and why we draw the competition box than the too- broad anachronism of men and women.
For spectators, sports are entertainment. Plenty of people are interested to watch a contest that identifies and celebrates the strongest or fastest or most skilled woman. In a mixed-sex competition, people don’t get to see that.
Respectfully: People have been studying sport performance for more than 100 years. There is vast, documented evidence - think Olympic records, youth records, HS records, scientific research - that males have a performance advantage over females at every height, weight, age, disability, level of fitness, anything. Sports is not a new field of study. Those of us who study sport already know things. This is one thing we know for sure.
Some men have advantage over all women but not all men. Some women have advantage over other women and also over some men. Athletes are individuals not averages. Let’s focus on the factual matters that are actually there in front of us rather than belief systems and generalisations that don’t apply in the specific cases of individual athletes.
Averages are why we have separate sports for men and women. Women would never win anything in combined sports. So men who aren’t good enough at sports to win in the male category need to accept it and suck it up like the rest of us who aren’t good enough to win at sports. If they need to compete against women to win, then either they need to play amateur sports for fun or find something else they do excel at. Winning sports isn’t a human right.
Exactly. Thanks, Donna. The fastest women in the world would be routinely defeated each year by hundreds of high school boys.
https://boysvswomen.com/#/
If women were physically as strong as men we likely would not have the patriarchy or so much femicide and abuse of women by men. But they know they can beat the shit out of us most of the time so they have the power. It's bullshit but that's the crappy truth.
‘Women would never win anything in combined sports’. Personally I think that viewpoint is problematic. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy- men as a category tending to be advantaged in a simple men/women divide. But if you pitted them according to height/weight/age etc more relevant divisions something different and more interesting could well emerge. Simply creating a ‘women’s’ category doesn’t do anything to be fair to women who are eg physically smaller than some very large and powerful elite women athletes. It’s not fair either.
Sorry you have a problem with a viewpoint of reality.
I’d be more convinced by you if you presented a counter argument.
Genius. Just genius. I can’t wait to try out this argument with the next person who accuses me of being a transphobe.
All I care about is that it is no longer our problem. If men want to take up the problem. they can. I don't want to feel in any way responsible for persuading or encouraging men to take up the problem because then it's back to being my problem.
Sure. These men are talking to men and boys. That's the beauty of it.
I’ve said this other ways and don’t want to repost my own writing but “will athletes welcome girly boys” is precisely the point of female sexual mimicry. What other males say and do is irrelevant.
A key objective of men imitating women - sexual mimicry - is precisely to never have to compete with men in sports, in work, or for emotional and sexual fulfillment with women.
They don’t want to because it unmasks the fiction that they are female.
Then at least it calls the bluff.
💯!! It's women who continue to, like in Scotland, fight for women and girls (with a few notable exceptions) at great cost. Men can absolutely help by opening their locker rooms and other spaces to "gender nonconforming" boys and men with intention and tolerance.
This is exactly what I have been saying for a while now. These boys have been lied to, given horrible advice, and now they think this is where they belong - in girls' sports (and spaces). Of course, that is wrong. The remedy is exactly what Cori says Let the boys and coaches on male teams explicitly invite girly" boys and masculine boys who just think they are girls (it being more of a mindset for some then a problem with masculinity) onto their teams and into their locker rooms. Let's show what real tolerance and empathy means. Rather than lying to boys by pretending they are girls, we can simply let them know they are welcome to play sports with other boys, because, no matter how effeminate they may be, and no matter what they think of themselves, they are, after all, boys.