More is coming out. Khelif’s trainer has confirmed XY and “high testosterone.” Testes might have descended at puberty but yes, XY ppl (males) do not have female internal organs.
Very clear and comprehensive summary covering most of the typical misunderstandings. The only small quibble I would have is that in theory (as I understand it) males with CAIS don’t have the advantage of male puberty because their testosterone is not expressed in cells. They usually have a very feminine appearance though, which is clearly not the case with these boxers.
I wish I didn’t have to spend all this time learning about these things but who would have thought that fighting for fairness (in Olympics of all places) is such an uphill battle.
What I can't understand is why the IOC is enabling this. So I listened to an episode of The Science of Sport, with Ross Tucker, from August 1st. Terrific episode, in summary, the IOC has chosen to prioritize inclusion over fairness. They claim that it's difficult to balance the two, and Tucker says, no it's impossible--you can prioritize one or the other, not both.
The point of categories is to create an equitable playing field, and mysteriously there are ways to screen every other category, eg weight, age, etc., and not this one, according to the IOC. It's scandalous.
This is so great to help my 18 year old son understand that we are not just hating on trans people. What he sees on social media is so disgusting and full of lies. Thank you for the straight explaining.
What a beautifully explained and timely article. Thank-you. More confusion is on its way, today, as a Thai XX boxer is boxing the Algerian XY boxer. She has a classic Thai tomboy lesbian haircut so looks like a man to Westerners. The general public often confuse Thailand with Taiwan so will think the two controversial XY boxers are in the ring together which they cannot be because they are in a different weight class as I just figured out.
Thai nationals and boxing enthusiasts have been talking about the controversy. The Thai language has only one pronoun and use the word woman and man as a modifier. So they are not confused as to who is male and who is female. Nor are they burdened with American transgender ideology. They have a third gender tradition that recognizes a cross-dressing presentation as gay or transvestite. Just as Thailand have the male ladyboys, she would be called a tom short for tomboy.( I am also called a tom.)
Some say if he is being allowed to box then so be it; some say the women should refuse to box these men. She herself wants to box the Algerian, and her fans are rooting for her. Both she and her fans feel that if she wins she will have shown that her skill is superior. Superior enough to overcome his male advantage.
Hi Amanda, Wow. I really appreciate this update and cultural context. (And loved your book, The Unexpected Penis, Tales from the Gender Trail.)
Thanks for alerting us to this situation. Oh my. People are going to be confused indeed. And the Thai "tom" will hear that she too "looks like a man." Fraught!
Meanwhile, I see that she has already competed against, and lost to, Khelif in 2022, but was granted victory due to Khelif's testosterone levels.
I worry about the general public's "she looks like man" conclusions. These accusations have indeed been, and continue to be, leveled at tomboys, lesbians, and muscular female athletes in general. Truth is, we can't always tell -- which is what sex tests (like the noninvasive cheek swab) are for, of course.
Today the Algerian XY boxer beat our Thai XX boxer in a very close match, landing one good punch. She kept her cool. He will now face a Chinese XX boxer who has already beat our Thai boxer at the Woman's Boxing World Championship in India last year. http://en.people.cn/n3/2023/0327/c90000-10227716.html
After watching the semifinals and lightweight finals today, I can see that China, Taipei and the Philippines all sent boxers with tomboy haircuts. It seems that boxing is the softball of Asia for lesbians. Heh.
I met some Chinese lesbians last year at my building workshop in Thailand and they confirmed for me that they have a similar butch/femme lesbian tradition as the Thais and have shortened the nickname "tomboy" to T. Apparently they have not been force teamed with the alphabet mafia of our American LGBTQ.
The younger one was in her '20's, and with more internet use, had heard of gender dysphoria and knew one young Chinese man who thought he was a woman. Chinese lesbians were otherwise untouched by trans ideology. They are able to meet on lesbian-only dating sites as our couple did. Homosexuals cannot hold government jobs in China, but are otherwise fine to hold civilian jobs without harassment. Very similar to how it was here in the '90s. I look on the '90s as the good old days now.
Great piece : Again why are they making accommodations for men to fit into our sex category and expecting women to comply: Women have fought for the right to vote, have mortgages in their names, access to employment and education.
Thank you, a much more sensible piece than some others I've seen. Assuming it's correct that they're males with DSDs, surely this would have become obvious at puberty? It also seems pretty telling that neither of them contested the findings of the IBA - if they were really women that would have been pretty upsetting, and it would have been pretty simple to do. Just as it would be simple to do now, and given all the fuss I can't imagine why they wouldn't take the opportunity to set the record straight. (well, I can imagine why, obviously).
Yes. If I were accused of cheating (basically what that was) and I had a simple way to disprove the accusation, I would absolutely do that and remove all doubt. People can say what they want about vengeful Russians or whatever, to me the most salient detail is declining to provide proof when it's easy to do.
Exactly. XX chromosomes are easy to prove with the cheek swab - and they're at the Olympics, surrounded by the World Anti-Doping Association, which has plentiful supplies to do that simple test. Yes neither athletes nor IOC are even claiming that they're XX.
Hi Sue, You should have seen the first draft. Not sensible at all. Just emotional. You know how women can be, ha ha. Seriously, thank you. I do want to educate, not just rant, so I'm glad that's coming through.
And yes, it's generally clear at puberty when things seem amiss, though there was a case of a 20-year-old named Maria Patino several years ago - a runner who did not think it odd to feel female yet never get a period because many extreme athletes do lose their periods, at least intermittently. That's what Patino said at the time - a total shock when revealed to be XY at a competition.
In the US, with ultrasounds and gender (should be sex) reveal parties and blood tests to look for Downs and other diseases in utero... most women know the sex ahead of time. So if an expected boy (XY) looks like a girl... they know something is amiss at birth.
Yes, the lack of appeals is telling. One (the Algerian) did appeal, then rescinded the appeal. So whatever is going on, they're aware, and not really disputing it, just showing up when the doors open to them.
Caster Semenya asserts that he is still a woman, who has internal testes. People can convince themselves of all kinds of things, when it benefits them.
It's very unfortunate that some are conflating this with trans stuff, which really is entirely different. I really hope they go back to proper testing.
I'm curious to know more about the testosterone levels of the female German swimmers who were (unknowingly) doping back in the 70s - was it into the male range? I'll have to look it up.
As for the German swimmers, one thing I know is that the German swimmers got much faster than non-doped female swimmers, but not nearly as fast as the male swimmers, which is the pattern. 1984 Olympic swimming champion Nancy Hogshead talks about this. This is also why women who identify as men, who call themselves, transmen, do not compete against men, even after taking testosterone. They can’t catch up. They can’t become men.
I was just reading up on the German doping - I hadn't realized the scale of it was so huge. They are still paying compensation to athletes for health effects. The IOC, faced with evidence, refused to revisit the medal situation. It looks like the Germans kept meticulous records, I wonder if those are being assessed by others now in light of the increasing use of testosterone in young women. (there was an article recently in a British medical publication cautioning about using it for women, I think related to menopause, but I don't think it said anything about trans men - totally different I guess).
Trans rights activists have always conflated the two issues deliberately. The phrase “assigned male or female at birth” comes from DSD situations, where genitalia can be ambiguous. it makes no sense for 99.98% of the population where genitalia are not on ambiguous. They use the fact of DSD conditions to argue that binary sex is not real though it is. But yes, the general public is probably more confused than ever. Hence, my efforts, and the efforts of many others, to write clearly and factually about these issues.
Ha ha how prescient. And oh yes such injuries are already happening.
I’d put money on this bet: ultrasound on those two would show: abdominal testes. No overies. No uterus. No cervix.
More is coming out. Khelif’s trainer has confirmed XY and “high testosterone.” Testes might have descended at puberty but yes, XY ppl (males) do not have female internal organs.
Bet his testes never descended but so what it doesn’t matter for purpose if sports!
Right. It matters if he has available testosterone. Which apparently he does.
A man
Transwo-men = males who claim to be women.
Imane = male claiming to be a woman.
Both are 🐂🐂
Very clear and comprehensive summary covering most of the typical misunderstandings. The only small quibble I would have is that in theory (as I understand it) males with CAIS don’t have the advantage of male puberty because their testosterone is not expressed in cells. They usually have a very feminine appearance though, which is clearly not the case with these boxers.
I wish I didn’t have to spend all this time learning about these things but who would have thought that fighting for fairness (in Olympics of all places) is such an uphill battle.
Right. CAIS is the one exception.
Apparently Swyer Syndrome is another case like this.
Great explainer.
What I can't understand is why the IOC is enabling this. So I listened to an episode of The Science of Sport, with Ross Tucker, from August 1st. Terrific episode, in summary, the IOC has chosen to prioritize inclusion over fairness. They claim that it's difficult to balance the two, and Tucker says, no it's impossible--you can prioritize one or the other, not both.
The point of categories is to create an equitable playing field, and mysteriously there are ways to screen every other category, eg weight, age, etc., and not this one, according to the IOC. It's scandalous.
Exactly. I love Ross Tucker. Inclusion means inclusion for males - and exclusion for females. That’s their priority: males. And thank you!
This is so great to help my 18 year old son understand that we are not just hating on trans people. What he sees on social media is so disgusting and full of lies. Thank you for the straight explaining.
Great! So glad to hear this came across as straightforward and is being shared. Thanks for letting me know.
What a beautifully explained and timely article. Thank-you. More confusion is on its way, today, as a Thai XX boxer is boxing the Algerian XY boxer. She has a classic Thai tomboy lesbian haircut so looks like a man to Westerners. The general public often confuse Thailand with Taiwan so will think the two controversial XY boxers are in the ring together which they cannot be because they are in a different weight class as I just figured out.
Thai nationals and boxing enthusiasts have been talking about the controversy. The Thai language has only one pronoun and use the word woman and man as a modifier. So they are not confused as to who is male and who is female. Nor are they burdened with American transgender ideology. They have a third gender tradition that recognizes a cross-dressing presentation as gay or transvestite. Just as Thailand have the male ladyboys, she would be called a tom short for tomboy.( I am also called a tom.)
Some say if he is being allowed to box then so be it; some say the women should refuse to box these men. She herself wants to box the Algerian, and her fans are rooting for her. Both she and her fans feel that if she wins she will have shown that her skill is superior. Superior enough to overcome his male advantage.
This English language article, from a Thai publication for expats and tourists, which uses the prescribed preferred pronouns of the Associated Press, tells her story. The quotes from Thai nationals are likely translated from the Thai, so should not be construed as an affirmation of the sex of the boxers who are male. https://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/2024/08/04/thai-boxer-janjaem-guarantees-bronze-prepares-for-challenging-imane-khelif/
This second article interviews the boxers family and they are from up country, not Bangkok which is more influenced by Western LGBT politics. They appear to fully accept their lesbian tom daughter though they do not mention it, just as mine accept me, but don't talk about it in polite society. The author of the article, however, goes onto to describe the Algerian boxer and frames the controversy in American trans ideological terms. https://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/2024/08/05/janjaem-vs-khelif-olympic-semifinal-bout-draws-attention-beyond-the-ring/?fbclid=IwY2xjawEe1fhleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHW8KzsU4B9mJHoEp3yRyR4cZIgnt96sDC7DNY4ApC7Zh_JwD2M-fzzKR6A_aem_azkxYmz1hBvTOsYGo9GJOg
I will write a substack about all this once the matches are finished.
Hi Amanda, Wow. I really appreciate this update and cultural context. (And loved your book, The Unexpected Penis, Tales from the Gender Trail.)
Thanks for alerting us to this situation. Oh my. People are going to be confused indeed. And the Thai "tom" will hear that she too "looks like a man." Fraught!
Meanwhile, I see that she has already competed against, and lost to, Khelif in 2022, but was granted victory due to Khelif's testosterone levels.
I worry about the general public's "she looks like man" conclusions. These accusations have indeed been, and continue to be, leveled at tomboys, lesbians, and muscular female athletes in general. Truth is, we can't always tell -- which is what sex tests (like the noninvasive cheek swab) are for, of course.
Today the Algerian XY boxer beat our Thai XX boxer in a very close match, landing one good punch. She kept her cool. He will now face a Chinese XX boxer who has already beat our Thai boxer at the Woman's Boxing World Championship in India last year. http://en.people.cn/n3/2023/0327/c90000-10227716.html
After watching the semifinals and lightweight finals today, I can see that China, Taipei and the Philippines all sent boxers with tomboy haircuts. It seems that boxing is the softball of Asia for lesbians. Heh.
I met some Chinese lesbians last year at my building workshop in Thailand and they confirmed for me that they have a similar butch/femme lesbian tradition as the Thais and have shortened the nickname "tomboy" to T. Apparently they have not been force teamed with the alphabet mafia of our American LGBTQ.
The younger one was in her '20's, and with more internet use, had heard of gender dysphoria and knew one young Chinese man who thought he was a woman. Chinese lesbians were otherwise untouched by trans ideology. They are able to meet on lesbian-only dating sites as our couple did. Homosexuals cannot hold government jobs in China, but are otherwise fine to hold civilian jobs without harassment. Very similar to how it was here in the '90s. I look on the '90s as the good old days now.
Great piece : Again why are they making accommodations for men to fit into our sex category and expecting women to comply: Women have fought for the right to vote, have mortgages in their names, access to employment and education.
Thank you, 80s. Right. And fought for sports! Which are not equal yet in scholarship dollars, media coverage, so much more.
Thank you, a much more sensible piece than some others I've seen. Assuming it's correct that they're males with DSDs, surely this would have become obvious at puberty? It also seems pretty telling that neither of them contested the findings of the IBA - if they were really women that would have been pretty upsetting, and it would have been pretty simple to do. Just as it would be simple to do now, and given all the fuss I can't imagine why they wouldn't take the opportunity to set the record straight. (well, I can imagine why, obviously).
Imane contested, but then withdrew; to me that says the results were unanticipated.
Yes. If I were accused of cheating (basically what that was) and I had a simple way to disprove the accusation, I would absolutely do that and remove all doubt. People can say what they want about vengeful Russians or whatever, to me the most salient detail is declining to provide proof when it's easy to do.
Exactly. XX chromosomes are easy to prove with the cheek swab - and they're at the Olympics, surrounded by the World Anti-Doping Association, which has plentiful supplies to do that simple test. Yes neither athletes nor IOC are even claiming that they're XX.
Hi Sue, You should have seen the first draft. Not sensible at all. Just emotional. You know how women can be, ha ha. Seriously, thank you. I do want to educate, not just rant, so I'm glad that's coming through.
And yes, it's generally clear at puberty when things seem amiss, though there was a case of a 20-year-old named Maria Patino several years ago - a runner who did not think it odd to feel female yet never get a period because many extreme athletes do lose their periods, at least intermittently. That's what Patino said at the time - a total shock when revealed to be XY at a competition.
In the US, with ultrasounds and gender (should be sex) reveal parties and blood tests to look for Downs and other diseases in utero... most women know the sex ahead of time. So if an expected boy (XY) looks like a girl... they know something is amiss at birth.
Yes, the lack of appeals is telling. One (the Algerian) did appeal, then rescinded the appeal. So whatever is going on, they're aware, and not really disputing it, just showing up when the doors open to them.
Caster Semenya asserts that he is still a woman, who has internal testes. People can convince themselves of all kinds of things, when it benefits them.
It's very unfortunate that some are conflating this with trans stuff, which really is entirely different. I really hope they go back to proper testing.
I'm curious to know more about the testosterone levels of the female German swimmers who were (unknowingly) doping back in the 70s - was it into the male range? I'll have to look it up.
As for the German swimmers, one thing I know is that the German swimmers got much faster than non-doped female swimmers, but not nearly as fast as the male swimmers, which is the pattern. 1984 Olympic swimming champion Nancy Hogshead talks about this. This is also why women who identify as men, who call themselves, transmen, do not compete against men, even after taking testosterone. They can’t catch up. They can’t become men.
I was just reading up on the German doping - I hadn't realized the scale of it was so huge. They are still paying compensation to athletes for health effects. The IOC, faced with evidence, refused to revisit the medal situation. It looks like the Germans kept meticulous records, I wonder if those are being assessed by others now in light of the increasing use of testosterone in young women. (there was an article recently in a British medical publication cautioning about using it for women, I think related to menopause, but I don't think it said anything about trans men - totally different I guess).
Trans rights activists have always conflated the two issues deliberately. The phrase “assigned male or female at birth” comes from DSD situations, where genitalia can be ambiguous. it makes no sense for 99.98% of the population where genitalia are not on ambiguous. They use the fact of DSD conditions to argue that binary sex is not real though it is. But yes, the general public is probably more confused than ever. Hence, my efforts, and the efforts of many others, to write clearly and factually about these issues.
Yeah, whereas they usually trot out DSDs as "breaking the binary," now they're trying to sell us on “cisgender XY women.”
They were never keen on logic.
Thanks. This is so thorough. Sharing it with a couple of friends with questions.
Great. Thanks for sharing.
Wow this is a deep dive that helps clarify the confusion in the sports arena and beyond! Thank you for illuminating all of us!
Hey Kathleen, Great - thanks so much. Yes, so much confusion. Hoping to shed some light.