c o n s e n t - a concept that journalism struggles with in service of "getting the story" -- and it's so interesting to see all of these perspectives of athletes in one place like this, people who had to cope with the rules of competition changing on them. thanks, mariah, for teasing out how consent is becoming an operative concept and how it links through all of this. happy birthday!
Anyone who believes that men who think they are women should be allowed to compete against biological women in most sports or that they belong in women's restrooms, locker rooms and prisons is either cognitively impaired or intellectually dishonest. Unfortunately most Democrats now fall into one of those two categories.
I applaud you for taking on this issue. I wish we lived in a world where issues could be considered one by one and not bundled into “left” and “right.” Thank you for swimming against the current.
Hi Poppy, Swimming against the current indeed - but I'm a strong swimmer, and have a great school of fish to swim with. :-) As for left and right, YES, female-only sports should not be partisan, and the media makes this worse by framing my position as far-right, which is absurd; I'm a lifelong Democrat. And there are many Democrats now on our side (67% according to a recent NYTimes poll) -- and a new organization called Democrats for an Informed Approach to Gender. I really appreciate your support.
Yes, it was indeed used callously and effectively by the current president. I don't want to give them ammunition either - but I do want to speak up for girls and women's rights. Many of us are working on a bipartisan basis, and trying to persuade Congress to do the same.
Yes, Mariah, we have to stop looking at what "party" someone self-labels as and just look at what they DO. I try to remember that axiom about actions speaking louder than words. Female athlete Riley Gaines was pivotal behind-the-scenes in the Executive Orders on this topic.
Reading about false dichotomies today. Stephen Jay Gould. He lists male/female and day/night as valid categories but most things are not so easily or accurately split into two things in opposition. This could be said about much of today’s political discourse. “I came to realize that most of the starkness and uncompromising opposition in all these episodes of dueling dichotomy arises not from any position actually taken by either party in the debate, but rather from the strawmen of extremity invented by one side to discredit the other and win the argument by ridicule.”
As a symptom of authoritarian, coercion-psychosis (I made that term up & trust it’s self explanatory) … this trans tyranny evinces a larger movement toward societal suicide. It is akin to the Maoist Cultural Revolution. Xi Van Fleet explains this well in her book, MAO’S AMERICA - a must read for anyone who mistakenly thinks this has anything to do with being compassionate to psychologically dysphoric people.
Great connection to consent. When there's a conflict of interest, how do we choose the right way? Tying this to consent seems very eye opening to me. A different angle to look at the issue from. Good thinking, Mariah.
Is there a way to start the establishment of alternative credentialing associations? Can the policy group take the lead on this? Let’s get our elite female athletes involved at least as figureheads. I am thinking of Selena, Martina, Billie Jean , etc. Thanks for what you do. We are all behind you!!
Hi Kristin, thanks so much. Probably easier to keep momentum going toward persuading existing orgs than creating new ones. They're coming around, most notably with World Athletics (track & field) announcing sex testing for anyone who wants to compete in female category. See this list, if you want, of gold-rated and silver-rated orgs: https://womenssportspolicy.org/female-fairness/
Thank you, Mariah, for that link, which I found very helpful. And I agree with your assessment that it will be easier to keep the existing momentum going. I have one last question for you.....If trans-identifying men do not belong in female sports (which I absolutely support), where then do they belong if they have undergone substantial transition such that they may not be able to compete in a men's category? Is it possible to remain a trans ally without relinquishing the protection of female spaces? Given that this is a reality in our time that isn't going anywhere son, is the policy working group giving consideration to alternative categories for trans and/or non-binary individuals? Just curious. Many thanks for your feedback and linking me to further learning.
From Kristin: 1) If trans-identifying men do not belong in female sports (which I absolutely support), where then do they belong if they have undergone substantial transition such that they may not be able to compete in a men's category?
A: The same place other men go who, due to illness, medication, drug use, injuries, or lack of athletic skill go: to recreational sports - either coed or in the proper sex category. Only the best athletes get to play at the highest levels of any tier: HS varsity, college, pro, Olympic, etc. The rest of us, if we fail to make those teams, can usually find other ways to keep enjoying sports, and fortunately there are many options. Usually these leagues, too, are divided by sex, for good reason, but coed sports also offer plentiful choices.
2) Is it possible to remain a trans ally without relinquishing the protection of female spaces?
A: I guess you'd have to ask trans-identified people how they define ally, and you might get various answers. Usually that's not for the dominant group to define. You might also ask what ally means to you, which trans-ID people you have in mind (men or women), why it's important to you, how to demonstrate the political or personal support you want to offer, and to whom, and why, and how to manage that while also protecting women's rights.
3) Given that this is a reality in our time that isn't going anywhere soon, is the policy working group giving consideration to alternative categories for trans and/or non-binary individuals?
A: We have discussed this at length, and landed here:
We support identity-based events such as the Gay Games and the Maccabiah Games (for Jewish and Israeli athletes).
I've heard of one trans-ID league so far; sure, why not? Interestingly, even there, they caution "people assigned male at birth" to take it easy on actual women, thereby acknowledging that male-female differences matter. But they're trying out new things, seeking positive sports experiences; go for it.
At the WSPWG, we do not see it as our responsibility to solve the problem of males who want to compete in women's sports and are unhappy about not being eligible; we only see it as our responsibility to protect the female category from ineligible people (including, for instance, women who take performance-enhancing drugs for any reason). If men are unhappy with that, we sincerely hope they can find joy in the men's category, which will probably require men to become more welcoming of all sorts of men, including feminine-seeming or -dressing ones.
We do not support nonbinary or trans categories b/c there's no need for it; everyone is male or female, and can play in those categories. Identities are not sexes, they're just beliefs or ways of thinking about oneself. Such thinking does not change a person into a different sex. If orgs offer a nonbinary category, as some marathons now do, guess who wins? The men. Then men have won the men's and nonbinary categories, and women can only win one. More prizes for men = unfair. Again.
Thank you for your response. Very helpful. I am going to sit on this and digest it a bit before I get back to you. On an immediate note, I only ask about becoming a trans ally as I guess I am trying to see if there is a way to temper the rage of the transactivist class and/or eradicate the ideology. I fear that may be futile :). Thanks again.
I think we can be compassionate humans and also set boundaries. I write about this is an article w Gavin Newsom in the title. Led to a good discussion. We can also be friends & friendly w all sorts of ppl. I do have trans friends.
Agreed! Sometimes I get carried away! LOL! I ask this because I don't think we can be seen and/or perceived as throwing the trans community under the bus (though I admit, given the rage of the activist class, the temptation to do just that). We must be solution oriented. Grateful for your feedback. God bless!
Yes, I think that's fascinating, too: applying the concept of consent to women's private spaces as well as our bodies. Another way people are starting to talk about this: One woman cannot consent for all others. So even though some (not very many) say "it's fine with me" if males use the women's restroom or locker room, they do not get to consent on behalf of the rest of us.
This is a well thought out and presented article. Thank you.
c o n s e n t - a concept that journalism struggles with in service of "getting the story" -- and it's so interesting to see all of these perspectives of athletes in one place like this, people who had to cope with the rules of competition changing on them. thanks, mariah, for teasing out how consent is becoming an operative concept and how it links through all of this. happy birthday!
No woman should be consenting for others. Every woman has the right to compete against her own sex and feel safe.
Anyone who believes that men who think they are women should be allowed to compete against biological women in most sports or that they belong in women's restrooms, locker rooms and prisons is either cognitively impaired or intellectually dishonest. Unfortunately most Democrats now fall into one of those two categories.
Hey, I failed to spot it was your birthday first time around—I hope you are having a wonderful birthday, and here’s to many more to come!
Happy Birthday, Mariah!!!
:-) Thanks, Katherine!
Happy birthday! And thank you for your advocacy for women!
Thanks for this. Can I use your we do not consent image, I want to display it on my Poshmark closet. 🤠
Yes absolutely. Thanks for asking. Everything I post is shareable.
https://posh.mk/cPO04dWUySb
Hopefully you can see this, thanks for letting me share it and display it proudly-
🤠🐶🌎🌍🌏
I applaud you for taking on this issue. I wish we lived in a world where issues could be considered one by one and not bundled into “left” and “right.” Thank you for swimming against the current.
Hi Poppy, Swimming against the current indeed - but I'm a strong swimmer, and have a great school of fish to swim with. :-) As for left and right, YES, female-only sports should not be partisan, and the media makes this worse by framing my position as far-right, which is absurd; I'm a lifelong Democrat. And there are many Democrats now on our side (67% according to a recent NYTimes poll) -- and a new organization called Democrats for an Informed Approach to Gender. I really appreciate your support.
I think this issue served as fodder for the GOP during the last election. We don’t need to be giving the ammunition.
Yes, it was indeed used callously and effectively by the current president. I don't want to give them ammunition either - but I do want to speak up for girls and women's rights. Many of us are working on a bipartisan basis, and trying to persuade Congress to do the same.
Yes, Mariah, we have to stop looking at what "party" someone self-labels as and just look at what they DO. I try to remember that axiom about actions speaking louder than words. Female athlete Riley Gaines was pivotal behind-the-scenes in the Executive Orders on this topic.
Reading about false dichotomies today. Stephen Jay Gould. He lists male/female and day/night as valid categories but most things are not so easily or accurately split into two things in opposition. This could be said about much of today’s political discourse. “I came to realize that most of the starkness and uncompromising opposition in all these episodes of dueling dichotomy arises not from any position actually taken by either party in the debate, but rather from the strawmen of extremity invented by one side to discredit the other and win the argument by ridicule.”
Brilliant, BRAVA!!! I have restacked.
Thanks, Susan!
As a symptom of authoritarian, coercion-psychosis (I made that term up & trust it’s self explanatory) … this trans tyranny evinces a larger movement toward societal suicide. It is akin to the Maoist Cultural Revolution. Xi Van Fleet explains this well in her book, MAO’S AMERICA - a must read for anyone who mistakenly thinks this has anything to do with being compassionate to psychologically dysphoric people.
Interesting connection to Mao. Thanks, Lloyd.
BRAVA, Mariah!!
WE DO NOT CONSENT!
Thanks, Lisa!
Great connection to consent. When there's a conflict of interest, how do we choose the right way? Tying this to consent seems very eye opening to me. A different angle to look at the issue from. Good thinking, Mariah.
Is there a way to start the establishment of alternative credentialing associations? Can the policy group take the lead on this? Let’s get our elite female athletes involved at least as figureheads. I am thinking of Selena, Martina, Billie Jean , etc. Thanks for what you do. We are all behind you!!
Hi Kristin, thanks so much. Probably easier to keep momentum going toward persuading existing orgs than creating new ones. They're coming around, most notably with World Athletics (track & field) announcing sex testing for anyone who wants to compete in female category. See this list, if you want, of gold-rated and silver-rated orgs: https://womenssportspolicy.org/female-fairness/
Thank you, Mariah, for that link, which I found very helpful. And I agree with your assessment that it will be easier to keep the existing momentum going. I have one last question for you.....If trans-identifying men do not belong in female sports (which I absolutely support), where then do they belong if they have undergone substantial transition such that they may not be able to compete in a men's category? Is it possible to remain a trans ally without relinquishing the protection of female spaces? Given that this is a reality in our time that isn't going anywhere son, is the policy working group giving consideration to alternative categories for trans and/or non-binary individuals? Just curious. Many thanks for your feedback and linking me to further learning.
From Kristin: 1) If trans-identifying men do not belong in female sports (which I absolutely support), where then do they belong if they have undergone substantial transition such that they may not be able to compete in a men's category?
A: The same place other men go who, due to illness, medication, drug use, injuries, or lack of athletic skill go: to recreational sports - either coed or in the proper sex category. Only the best athletes get to play at the highest levels of any tier: HS varsity, college, pro, Olympic, etc. The rest of us, if we fail to make those teams, can usually find other ways to keep enjoying sports, and fortunately there are many options. Usually these leagues, too, are divided by sex, for good reason, but coed sports also offer plentiful choices.
2) Is it possible to remain a trans ally without relinquishing the protection of female spaces?
A: I guess you'd have to ask trans-identified people how they define ally, and you might get various answers. Usually that's not for the dominant group to define. You might also ask what ally means to you, which trans-ID people you have in mind (men or women), why it's important to you, how to demonstrate the political or personal support you want to offer, and to whom, and why, and how to manage that while also protecting women's rights.
3) Given that this is a reality in our time that isn't going anywhere soon, is the policy working group giving consideration to alternative categories for trans and/or non-binary individuals?
A: We have discussed this at length, and landed here:
We support identity-based events such as the Gay Games and the Maccabiah Games (for Jewish and Israeli athletes).
I've heard of one trans-ID league so far; sure, why not? Interestingly, even there, they caution "people assigned male at birth" to take it easy on actual women, thereby acknowledging that male-female differences matter. But they're trying out new things, seeking positive sports experiences; go for it.
At the WSPWG, we do not see it as our responsibility to solve the problem of males who want to compete in women's sports and are unhappy about not being eligible; we only see it as our responsibility to protect the female category from ineligible people (including, for instance, women who take performance-enhancing drugs for any reason). If men are unhappy with that, we sincerely hope they can find joy in the men's category, which will probably require men to become more welcoming of all sorts of men, including feminine-seeming or -dressing ones.
We do not support nonbinary or trans categories b/c there's no need for it; everyone is male or female, and can play in those categories. Identities are not sexes, they're just beliefs or ways of thinking about oneself. Such thinking does not change a person into a different sex. If orgs offer a nonbinary category, as some marathons now do, guess who wins? The men. Then men have won the men's and nonbinary categories, and women can only win one. More prizes for men = unfair. Again.
:-) Thanks for asking.
Thank you for your response. Very helpful. I am going to sit on this and digest it a bit before I get back to you. On an immediate note, I only ask about becoming a trans ally as I guess I am trying to see if there is a way to temper the rage of the transactivist class and/or eradicate the ideology. I fear that may be futile :). Thanks again.
I think we can be compassionate humans and also set boundaries. I write about this is an article w Gavin Newsom in the title. Led to a good discussion. We can also be friends & friendly w all sorts of ppl. I do have trans friends.
Hi Kristen, that was not one question, lol. But they’re all good questions and I’ll get back to you as soon as I can.
Agreed! Sometimes I get carried away! LOL! I ask this because I don't think we can be seen and/or perceived as throwing the trans community under the bus (though I admit, given the rage of the activist class, the temptation to do just that). We must be solution oriented. Grateful for your feedback. God bless!
Yes, I think that's fascinating, too: applying the concept of consent to women's private spaces as well as our bodies. Another way people are starting to talk about this: One woman cannot consent for all others. So even though some (not very many) say "it's fine with me" if males use the women's restroom or locker room, they do not get to consent on behalf of the rest of us.