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Jai Byrd's avatar

WOW

This old cruddy dude didn't have the decency to put his tools in his tool box. He needs to be flogged

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Petula's avatar

Those last few words should be lingered over: ‘less skilled boys’. They remind us that sport should be a test of skill more than of natural advantage, which is the whole reason for having separate female and male categories

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Teed Rockwell's avatar

I am very bad at math, so I’m probably not a very good person to bring up this kind of objection. But here goes: you can’t measure fairness just by how often men compete or how often they win. what matters is what PERCENTAGE of athletes are men, and what percentage are women. If men are 5% of all athletes competing with women, and they are only winning 5% or less of the prizes, there is nothing unfair about that. If on the other hand, they are winning 10 or 20% of the prizes, that would indicate that their maleness is giving them an unfair advantage. Medical physicist Joanna Harper used an even more effective control by comparing trans runners both before and after their transitions. She discovered that their ability to win against females after transition was no higher than their ability to win against males before transition. This is strong evidence that hormone therapy removes the advantage that male runners usually have over female runners.

The advantage is not as easily eliminated in other sports however. Swimmer Lia Thomas was ranked in the lower 500s in various events before transition, and among the top 10 after transition. this is why the Olympic committee rightly disqualified Lia from competing against women. These kind of factors have to be considered if trans people are permitted to compete against women. These advantages can’t be measured however, if you only list the number of males competing and pay no attention to the percentages. I may not have figured out the best way to calculate the significance of those percentages. I would appreciate it if anyone with better math skills would do a better job than I did. Nevertheless I know for certain that these advantages can’t be determined if all we have is only one number measuring the quantity of athletes. More on this here: https://substack.com/@teedrockwell/note/p-157588382?r=l7a9l&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action

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Gerda Ho's avatar

Why do we have to be mathematicians to know that men competing and winning prizes in women’s sports are cheating? It’s unfair no matter how you do the math! That’s just obfuscating the facts.

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Teed Rockwell's avatar

The only reason it is unfair is that men have physical advantages over women which enable men to win, even if they have put less effort into developing their skills.

if there were no such advantages, there is really no reason to have men and women compete separately. Why do it otherwise? Because God doesn’t want men and women competing against each other? Even if I were Christian, which I’m not, I’m reasonably sure there is nothing in the Bible one way or the other on that topic.

One way to prove or disprove this is to compare their victories before and after transitioning. There is strong evidence that any given man will lose certain kinds of strengths after HRT. There is less evidence that these losses will actually level the playing field. In some sports it appears to, in other sports it doesn’t. The math is helpful in determining whether that advantage is still there.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Teed, I see you working hard to understand the problem of males in female sports (I read the post you linked to and 3 of your comments on my work), and see that you're looking at it from a variety of angles. I appreciate all of that.

I don't have time to walk you through the three years I've spent thinking about this, but most of your conclusions are wrong due to lack of information; trusting the research of Joanna Harper, whose work has largely been discredited due to tiny sample sizes and historical self-reports - and even Harper recently admitted that there's no way to remove male advantage and is now proposing "meaningful competition" instead); and this assumption: that men can somehow earn their way into women's sports events if they take meds (69% do not) or don't win too often.

Each male in a female event replaces a female participant. There's no reason for any of them to be there. And why should ANY men win women's trophies? We don't care if it's just five percent (your example) or just one man. The male category is for males. All the males. The female category is ours, for obvious reasons.

Please try to see this from a female perspective, and it should get clearer.

To learn more, please read any/all of my columns in my #SaveWomensSports channel: https://strongerwomen.substack.com/s/save-womens-sports

Respectfully, M.

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Teed Rockwell's avatar

I do appreciate your thoughtful and considerate responses, to both my post and to many others on this subject. That's a rare thing. There is almost no communication going on in this "debate". What we have are two echo chambers that constantly reinforce their animosity to each other. Check the comments on this post. This is the only one that offers anything resembling a critical response. Every other comment is cheerleading. That is true of every other post on this subject I have seen on Substack. (That may be a fault of the algorithm, of course). However if you go to Medium or Daily Kos, you get nothing but the other side, with all the comments cheerleading that position. And if you dare to take the forbidden side in either echo chamber, you get showered with abuse. Again, I am thankful that you have tried in some of your posts to combat this problem. I will continue to read your posts for that reason.

Part of the problem is that there isn't any agreement on acceptable language. I have to refer to Transwomen as women if I'm talking to one side, and as men if I'm talking to the other. How can there be dialog on the important issues when we are quibbling over word choice? I have to rewrite everything for each side to make sure I don't trigger my readers over this issue.

Both sides of this debate need to compromise. This issue needs to be resolved as quickly as possible, because the MAGA fascists are riding it to victory. That's the only reason I'm studying this issue. I have almost no interest in sports, and so I don't really care either way. That makes it hard for me to empathize with either side, of course, which is a handicap. But it might increase my chance of being able to see both sides with relative clarity. (It's not a matter of one side being the female perspective, however. The majority of people who call me transphobic are women.)

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Lisa Simeone's avatar

Yes, the MAGA fascists are riding it to victory, and that's the fault of liberals who have handed it to them on a silver platter.

Mariah and I -- and millions of other women -- are liberals. But we're not ideologues and we're not idiots. And we are furious with the Democratic Party and with people who clalim they're liberals for their insane stance on this. They are wrong. They are harming people, especially women and children. They are falsely framing trans ideology as a civil rights issue when it's nothing of the sort.

People can't change their sex. Men can't become women, and women can't become men. Period.

Single-sex spaces exist for a reason. For the safety of women and girls. And unless the Dems wake up and come back to common sense, they're going to keep losing and losing and losing.

Check out DIAG -- Democrats for an Informed Approach to Gender:

https://www.di-ag.org

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Yes. Thank you, Lisa! I love how you write. In a review, Robert Lipsyte of the New York Times once wrote that I write "with both elbows flying." I'll pass that compliment on to you. :-)

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Sufeitzy's avatar

I refer to this as “men imitating women” then “imitating victory”.

I’m surprised there are not more Fraud lawsuits. It’s easy to construct. By the looks of it there are 10’s of thousands of opportunities.

You pay to sponsor a women’s running event.

A man participates.

You sue the event for fraud.

You pay to enter a women’s bicycle event.

A man participates.

You sue the event for fraud.

You are on a women’s college volleyball team.

A man participates.

You sue the school for fraud.

You pay to attend a women’s soccer match.

A man participates.

You sue the event for fraud.

The class action case of fraud is trivially easy.

All the women participating sue each and every sports body claiming female sports.

They sue for each man present.

They sue the governing body.

They sue each board member individually.

They sue the sponsors.

All assuming women’s sports event and governing bodies are run by businesses and associations, they have D&O insurance - Directors and Officers, in case those people make poor decisions they are covered for personal liability. I’ve been on boards and run non-profit research institutions, I have had the legal briefings and paid for the insurance.

Sports associations become non-insurable if they begin having lawsuits against the club for fraud, and against the officers.

I’d recommend advocating for fraud suits since they are absurdly simple to litigate.

I would also send threatening letters en mass to associations and institutions notifying them that women’s groups are assembling legal teams to consider how much damage they have endured from past fraud cases, and that they should retain any and all records relating to the due diligence they took at ensuring no males entered the competition, as men imitating women have become pervasive in the sports.

I’ve been trying to understand why this even happens.

https://open.substack.com/pub/sufeitzy/p/mimesexuality-1-incipendum

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Sufeitzy's avatar

Eek! I feel so… conservative. Well that was 4 months ago. It would also just be approached by empathetic people like teen girls. Paxton is a real piece of work but nobody would feel poorly about young female athletes.

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Gerda Ho's avatar

Feeling conservative on this issue is a good feeling! The liberals that support trans” women” are not liberal…they’re illiberal.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

I agree that fraud is an intriguing approach to the problem of males in female sports. In the Texas Attorney General's suit against the NCAA, "The lawsuit alleges the NCAA engaged in deceptive business practices by promoting women's sporting events that are actually "mixed sex sporting events where men can compete against women."

There's a temporary injunction against Texas' call for sex texting, but the main argument could prevail, here or in other cases.

https://midmichigannow.com/news/nation-world/texas-ag-sues-ncaa-over-biological-men-competing-in-womens-sports-ken-paxton-transgender-lgbt-trans-gay-lesbian-athletics-collegiate-universities-sporting-events

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Adhib's avatar

I fear He Cheated may have been nobbled.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Uh-oh. I sent a message to the owner. Will report back if I learn anything.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

It’s back online.

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ClemenceDane's avatar

I read your book "The Stronger Women Get, the More Men Love Football" when it first came out and thought it was brilliant! I've actually been wondering what you thought of this whole trans ideology business and the takeover of women's and girls' sports. Glad to see you're still out there punching!

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

:-) Hi Clemence, Of course I love hearing all of that. The phrase "Glad to see you're still out there punching!" made me laugh. But you're right: That is what it takes sometimes, even when one's boxing gloves are just fingers on a keyboard. Thanks so much for your enthusiastic support.

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ClemenceDane's avatar

Haha, yes, I also punch mostly with my keyboard.

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Dusty Masterson's avatar

Thanks and what a great and important resource.

Have cross posted

https://dustymasterson.substack.com/p/yeh-alright

Dusty

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Terrific. Thanks for re-posting, Dusty!

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Dusty Masterson's avatar

You're welcome, Mariah. Great piece.

Here is my urgent update for today FYI

https://dustymasterson.substack.com/p/stand-with-gript-news

Dusty

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Sweet Caroline's avatar

Athena is a hero. Thank you for highlighting her work and her words. This is scandalous. I will find a way to share the findings with my running and tennis friends. They choose to ignore this. How dare they?

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Yes, HeCheated.org offers a wealth of otherwise unknown information, all due to the volunteer labor of one strong woman.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Update to He Cheated.org info just about 2 months later, thanks to MA4Women: https://substack.com/@ma4women/note/c-84077579?

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Anne Martinez's avatar

One hole in the logic: We're told that sex isn't real and that there are more than two genders, yet a model that is arguably based on either/both binary sex and gender persists. That is, TRAs are not arguing for a change from the boys'/men's - girls'/women's teams dynamic -- why? Well, seems that's because, belying their claims about more than two genders and sex being a spectrum, they need there to be teams of female athletes for the male athletes to beat.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Yes - it still comes down to a binary, and sexist stereotypes about how women or men do or should look and behave. And yes, sometimes it's about defeating women. Other times it seems to be mostly about being publicly affirmed as belonging in the female category. If the sports rules say that you're allowed to compete in the women's category, then you must be "really" a woman after all. Same for women's private spaces. To go there is to insist that society treat you like a woman, with the same (limited!) privileges.

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Anne Martinez's avatar

Yes—you're right, it is also about the "validation" of being on the "women's team." Can't get that on an "open team" or being welcomed on the men's team.

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EW's avatar

I saw activists defend Lia Thomas exposing himself in the women’s locker room by claiming he could be murdered in the men’s locker room. Everyone ignored the implication that the Penn state men’s swim team apparently included men so violent that they’d murder Thomas.

The truth is it’s not that they fear violence from the men. They don’t want a safe place to change and they don’t want a chance to compete. What they want is access to women. It’s not the sport, it’s the women. To see them change, embarrass them, scare them, and humiliate them.

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Citternist's avatar

Maybe they (trans-identified) could get validation if they weren’t ostracized on the men’s side? Like they could wear ponytails or lipstick or women’s tank suits in men’s competition and that’d be OK? A solution? Differentiate ‘women’ from sex ‘female’? Would have to maintain the rules for transmen (they shouldn’t be ostracized if bearded, mastectomied & going bear chested (a swim event or some such)? We need solutions bad!

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Anne Martinez's avatar

I have yet to see any TRAs push for acceptance of trans women by men—except for straight men to see them as being the same as cis women and to date them.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Yes, much of the problem lies with rigid male sex roles. If men would welcome men who wear lipstick, ponytails, etc. into men's sports, that could go a long way toward freeing people to dress as they wish while competing in the proper sex category. We know from effeminate gay men's horror stories that this is not the case in many sports, but it's a vision for men to work toward.

On the women's side, there is no rush among trans-identified women to play with men. This highlights the fallacy that males who ID as trans "must" be "affirmed" in the women's category. Women stay in the women's category regardless of gender ID because that makes the most sense competitively (men are too big, too fast, too strong), and those who call themselves transmen are not reporting any massive gender dysphoria as a result.

Those women who appear somewhat "masculine" are already accepted among female athletes (after all, just playing sports has long been considered masculine) -- as long as they have not taken testosterone, which is disqualifying. In that case, they, too, should be welcomed on in the men's (or renamed open) category, though their testosterone boost will generally not improve their performance enough to match men's natural performance advantage.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Exactly. Though I know a few males who dress as women but still use male restrooms and do not compete against women. So it can happen. Stay tuned. :-)

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Chris Fehr's avatar

Just yesterday a coworker that normally has no interest in sports and I don't think ever golfed was telling me about a trans golfer that is winning in women's golf. Unfortonatly the stereo type is that men that ordinarily don't care about women's sports are the ones complaining about this. It's not fair but I think women are going to have to be the loudest on this.

I only expect it to become bigger as prize money and pro salaries go up for women's sports and certian less democratic countries chase more medals for national glory.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Yes, that golfer is probably Hailey Davidson, who this week failed to qualify for the LPGA tour but will play on another smaller women's tour. 275 female golfers signed a letter of protest and the LPGA is said to be reconsidering whether this is really such a great idea. I welcome male and female voices of protest, information, sanity. Women and girls are getting louder and louder; seems to be coming to a head - but countless world organizations are involved in decision-making, which at the moment must happen on an organization-by-organization basis. A federal law here in the States would also do it.

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Chris Fehr's avatar

A federal law on it would bemuch better. You can imagine smaller sports organizations don't have the money and time to get tied up in court over these things. A similar thing happened in women's MX a few years ago and people were worried about what would happen but it turns out she finished af enough down the order that it didn't matter.

I think it's an unfortonate distraction in th epolitical world that gives an uperhand to the MAGA gang while the left has to tip toe around these issues much more.

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Sweet Caroline's avatar

Please stop referring to people who voted for Trump in a derogatory tone. MAGA gang. Really? I am a human with legitimate political and social concerns. Additionally, I have been ripped apart at the seams as my daughter spirals towards ruination due to gender ideology being shoved into every aspect of culture, education, government and medicine. The fraud perpetrated on her is astounding. Criminal. It is trying to kill her, so please, just stop it.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

So sorry about your daughter, Sweet Caroline -- and about your feeling "ripped apart at the seams." Yes, it's coming at us from all angles, and devastating to so many families, and far beyond.

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Chris Fehr's avatar

If MAGA gang has you that bothered that only demonstrates the thin skin of people who identify as MAGA.

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Ed Leventhal's avatar

Really classy there Chris.

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Chris Fehr's avatar

Thanks

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

I agree. Democrats need to come to their senses and remember their longstanding support for women's equal rights. Even if a male athlete finishes far from the podium in a female event, he's still taking up space where he does not belong.

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John Robert's avatar

“But it doesn’t happen often” is even more true of white police gunning down unarmed Black men. Or anyone, for that matter.

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Barbora Jiřincová's avatar

That picture just says it all. How can anyone see the picture and still defend men competing in the women's sports?

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MarkS's avatar

There is also https://www.shewon.org but that seems less complete.

My complaint with https://www.hecheated.org is that the numbers you cite are not easy to find there.

On the front page, the only obvious thing to do is to click on the big central "Results" button. Then the reader is asked to "Select a sport".

Come on! Show the big numbers up front, without having to click on anything! I had found this site some time ago, but gave up when I had to "select a sport".

Sorry to rant at someone doing good work, but these results need to be formatted in a way which gives the key info without so much effort on the reader's part.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Also you can select “all sports.” Just in case you didn’t notice that.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Yes - She Won is all self-reported by the women, focusing on them, which is good too but different.

“Athena” is open to suggestions. The site is new. Send feedback to her if you want: Info@HeCheated.org.

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Frau Katze's avatar

Valentina Petrillo is a most unconvincing-looking woman. What a creep.

If he wants to call himself a woman, he can go ahead, but he should keep out of women’s sports.

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Yes, I agree, but I feel a need to note that this is not about how successfully men disguise themselves as women. Nor how women actually look, or should look. We can look any way we want, as can men. We just need men to admit that they're men and stay in their own (men's category) lane.

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Susan Scheid's avatar

Brava, Athena, whoever you are! “He Cheated” is an invaluable resource. And thanks so much to you, Mariah, for compiling so much important information in this post. I am saving this for reference and use when confronted with the claim “but there are only a few.” (Of course, as we know, a few is still too many. The women’s category is for women.)

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Mariah Burton Nelson's avatar

Ditto re brava to Athena & one is too many. Glad this seems useful. Thanks!

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