Wyatt: “As a lesbian feminist, you certainly do not need me to mansplain…”
Mariah: “Right. I do not.”
Hi Friends, and welcome, newcomers!
Last week, a friend shared a recent post and commented:
Super interesting article by my friend Mariah Burton Nelson – writer, former pro basketball player, longtime “out” lesbian feminist – arguing that women who just a few decades ago would have ended up as contented lesbians end up instead, in the current climate, believing they are trans and undergo irreversible “gender conforming” surgery. I had never thought of this!
My friend’s young-adult son read the story and disagreed about the trans trend and more, which led to a thoughtful online exchange, lightly edited for length, below.
“I Know Many Trans Men Who Used to Be Lesbians”
WYATT1: I don’t think the article is without truth, but I know multiple trans men who came out as lesbians, lived that life for a few years, and now live as trans men, feeling more “like themselves” than they did as lesbians. One friend still speaks about his time as a lesbian as a stage of self-discovery — but had surgical and hormonal intervention and is happier as a man than he ever was before.
None of my trans friends are athletes. I support letting sports leagues make their own rules around trans athletes without government interference.
“The Best They Can Do Is Pretend.“
MARIAH: Your story supports Lauren’s observations that identifying as “trans men” is a lesbian trend. Here’s a summary of the research:
Are lesbians happier “living as men”? Sometimes. Especially at first, because T is a powerful mood elevator.
Sometimes they’re happy for a while, until side effects of drugs (blood clots, heart attack, stroke, unwanted aggressive feelings) and surgeries lead many to regret trying to reject their sexed bodies. Surgical complications include infections from mastectomy and other incisions; nipple rejection; chronic inflammation due to massive skin removal on the arm to create the faux phallus; incontinence; lack of sexual and breast function and pleasure; lack of reproductive function. And transitioning does not resolve underlying comorbidities: anxiety, depression, adverse childhood experiences, history of sexual abuse.
Humans cannot change sex. The best they can do is pretend and ask others to pretend. Women often hope to evade the sexual harassment, insults, assaults, and discrimination they have already experienced or have good reason to fear.
If they change their minds, they’re left with deep voices and permanently mutilated bodies. Wouldn’t it be better if they could learn to love themselves as the women they are and always will be?
“You Do Not Need Me to Mansplain the Long History of He/Him Lesbians.”
WYATT: I hear your points, but I lack scientific knowledge and have to trust my own lying eyes and ears over your research. I knew people who experimented with their gender and then decided against it, but of those who have gone through with medical intervention, I’ve seen only persisting satisfaction. In most of these cases, it seemed like the “trying” phase was what came before: trying to fit into the easier social slot of being a lesbian before realizing that wasn’t the right path.
As a lesbian feminist, you certainly do not need me to mansplain the long history of “he/him lesbians.” I am strong in my conviction that “long-lasting identification with the gender not corresponding to one’s sex” is a timeless feature of some people that deserves to be nurtured, not pigeonholed.
“Lesbianism Is Not a Phase Toward Women Presenting Themselves as Straight Men.”
MARIAH: As for mansplaining: Right. Not a good idea. There is no “long history of he/him lesbians” — just historical revisionism.
You said you lack scientific knowledge, but I just shared some in the Who Are Trans Kids? summary.
And no, lesbianism is not a phase toward women discovering how to be more “like themselves” by presenting themselves as straight men. To the extent that any lesbians may find it easier to “live as men,” I find that a tragic indictment of our sexist and homophobic culture.
My main expertise is women athletes and our right to all-female sports and spaces. There’s no reason for the local-control decision-making you favor since female rights, Title IX, and girls and women themselves do not vary from one locale to another. Everywhere we go, we deserve fairness, privacy, and dignity.
“Humans By and Large Deserve the Benefit of the Doubt”
WYATT: You obviously know more about the science than I do, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with your conclusions, or that your characterization is complete. Especially because my social circles contain many people who would bristle and disagree.
I’m 25 years old. My friends who are trans: many realized it as children.
You’re right. Lesbianism is not a phase.
Trans men hear that they’re just gay women. Trans women get told that they’re groomers, predators, or autogynephiles. People are a diverse tapestry, and I think humans by and large deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I’m not going to argue about athleticism. I don’t have any trans friends who play sports. I do have trans friends who want to be left alone, who don’t want to be a political boogeyman. They want to do art and find a stable job and in some cases, have the medical freedom to continue a regimen of gender affirming care that works for them.
“Might You Up Your Game on the Female-Ally Front?”
MARIAH: You seem like a thoughtful guy. Here’s a two-part thought experiment in case you’re up for it:
What if you were to give women the benefit of the doubt – since, as you said, “humans by and large deserve the benefit of the doubt”?
What if, after listening with an open mind to women, and trusting that women know what we’re talking about, and respecting that women have rights that matter, you became an ally for women, the way you seem to be an ally for trans-identified people?
Maybe you already do this. I appreciate that you’re not responding with sarcasm, dismissal, name-calling. The people who do that receive no intriguing thought-experiment suggestions from me. But lucky you… :-)
I’m encouraging you to up your game on the female-ally front. When I shared Who Are Trans Kids?, you said you don’t have to agree with my conclusions and that my research summary may be incomplete. “Especially because my social circles contain many people who would… disagree.”
Okay – peer influence can be more persuasive than facts.
But could you imagine, in this thought experiment, that you give women the benefit of the doubt? That you believe us when we say we need our own sports and spaces?
You seem to know from your dad – a friend I met 40 years ago, when we were your age – that women’s sports are my expertise. Yet when I responded that girls and women everywhere deserve fairness, privacy, and dignity, you replied, “I’m not going to argue about athleticism.”
But why even consider arguing? Why not just listen, learn, and give this women’s sports expert the benefit of the doubt?
I expect that you already support women in numerous ways. I’m just challenging you – and I do hope this reads like a gentle challenge, not an accusation – to believe, trust, and defend women — even if your friends disagree with you.
You could do a lot of good. Women who are not trans-identified need allies, too.
“A Vision of Feminism That Uplifts All Women.”
WYATT: I do believe that all women need protection and defending, and I appreciate your giving me the benefit of the doubt on that front, as well.
You may not feel that you share the bond of womanhood with trans women on account of their male biology, but I see gender roles as transcending biology — therefore, so too must my allyship.
People are not just their biology, sex organs, chromosomes. They are not just their capacity for violence.
I respect that your sports perspective comes from an earnest desire to protect women who are biologically female from various forms of violence, ranging from systemic unfairness to sexual assault and rape. When I say the local leagues should handle it, I admit that is probably an imperfect and uninformed perspective. It’s an attempt to limit the harms. The rhetoric on sports is being used to justify a widespread campaign of dehumanization against trans people by a political movement I think you would agree does not give a fuck about women. How can an administration staffed with rapists, under a rapist and serial philandering commander in chief, seriously argue that “men in women’s sports” is a major issue?
Especially outside the sports arena, I believe in a vision of feminism that defends and uplifts all women, not pitting them against each other.
Verbal Gerrymandering and Women’s Boundaries
We ended the online chat there, with a man claiming that some women have “male biology.” I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard discussions devolve to this same bizarre verbal gerrymandering. No. The word women means women. You can’t redraw the boundaries of “women” to advantage men who want access to women’s spaces. Our boundaries — based on facts, needs, rights — must be respected.
In case you’re wondering: I don’t have this much patience for everyone. I was curious at first because of my friendship with Wyatt’s dad. Then I became interested in the exchange as an experiment in civil discourse — and a test, in a way, for both of us.
Afterward, I privately informed Wyatt about this story and offered him anonymity. It was a friendly, sincerely appreciative exchange.
Thoughts? I’m always curious.
See also:
This is a pseudonym.
Thank you for sharing this exchange. On Wyatt's part, it contains all the classic strategies: elevating "lived experience" over scientific facts, and a strong commitment to the belief that "gender identity" is real and more important than sex.
"I see gender roles as transcending biology" - how can they not realize that "gender roles", especially as adopted by the opposite sex, are nothing but stereotypes? How can they not understand that those gender roles can be transcended without denying biology? Instead, they truly think themselves sophisticated for dismissing the material reality of our sexed bodies by saying that "people are not just their biology, sex organs, chromosomes". No doubt - but that biology is the inescapable foundation of everything else we are, and cannot be changed. Denying it is not healthy - not for the individual and not for society, which is forced to participate in this denial of reality.
And as they realize the untenable nature of this denial in sports, which is fundamentally about the performance of physically real bodies, they try to shun responsibility by saying "local leagues" should handle that pesky issue - just so they don't have to betray their "trans" friends by acknowledging that their "identity" is an illusion and we cannot pretend our sexed bodies aren't the inescapable foundation of our existence.
This generation has been so captured by activist propaganda and they don't even realize it. I don't know who will be able to deprogram them, given how many of them have friends caught up in this cult whom they naturally want to protect, since for some of them, there is no way back.
I'm sorry, but as much as he tries to be "fair", I just can't care too much what a 25 year old man thinks about women's right to privacy, dignity and safety when he has zero skin in the game. I can't imagine the hubris it takes to lecture a female athlete and lesbian about what it means to be a woman and that women are obligated to make their world smaller to accommodate confused (or worse) men. Who else does he feel he has moral authority over out of curiosity?